tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post114554646485653258..comments2024-02-08T07:33:49.907-08:00Comments on Re-Imagineering: The Decline of the RiverMr Bankshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12952506736745891323noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-89599884008137484302007-04-23T08:43:00.000-07:002007-04-23T08:43:00.000-07:00I am 52 and simply a 35 year park visitor from SoC...I am 52 and simply a 35 year park visitor from SoCal. I visited Disneyland twice in the last 30 days and left disheartened both times for many of the reasons cited here, and more practical concerns that erode the experience. My two cents:<BR/><BR/>1. Loss of Quality of Experience: From the new parking lots two miles from the entrance with no tram service, to the "we're never too full to sell one more ticket" philosophy, the quality of the experience has declined. At the end of a long day, walking back to the lot, you aren't thinking "happy thoughts", I assure you. When you pull a Fast Pass that says your slot is 4 hours away, or spend one hour in a line for one ride (this was Sunday, April 23, 2007), or see the Park shuttered at 4 p.m. to entertain the Travel Industry, it becomes obvious current management cares SOLELY about a bottom line, and no longer gives a damn about the visitor experience.<BR/><BR/>2. Declining Park Maintenance: Back in the day, you couldn't find a bulb out in the park. Now you see faded buildings and event venues that should have been painted a year or two ago, broken animatronics unattended, amateurly selected and depressing color choices (Tomorrowland buildings are now a blah light blue or gray color scheme).<BR/><BR/>3. Loss of Clarity: WTF IS California Adventure? At first I thought it was an adrenaline rush park for adults and teens, then they drop Bug's Life into it. No clarity of concept. Meanwhile at DIsneyland, everything is moving to adrenaline rides. For God's sake, put those at CA. Hey, I loved the new Rocking Rocket Ride, but the ride outside of the set while you're in line really is NOT a space oriented experience anymore. Again, loss of clear themes. <BR/><BR/>4: Loss of Education: Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln. Gone. Carousel of Progress. Gone. I see no current effort to educate through entertainment, in fact that idea is being phased out.<BR/><BR/>5. Loss of Vision: Tomorrowland is anything but. No trips to the Moon, or Mars, no future houses, no Shrinking Ride - nothing to cause you to dreamof the future, to push ideas forward for the future, nothing to stimulate imagination. At all. Might as well rename that part now that Finding Nemo is taking over the sub pen in another synergistic cash grab.<BR/><BR/>6. Country Bear Jamboree - Gone, replaced by a cheap kiddie Pooh ride, doesn't do Pooh justice. Ripped out one of the most relaxing, enjoyable rides at Disney, one which had alot of $ invested in it, for another Mr. Toad's Wild Ride equivalent. Why? Because the animated movie bombed???<BR/><BR/>Disgusted, disheartened. Clearly the park is in the hands of 30 somethings with no clue as to the park's history and vision, or bean counters and suits. <BR/><BR/>Sad experience, and it's noAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-7301714310628708072007-02-16T14:07:00.000-08:002007-02-16T14:07:00.000-08:00I saw on Mouse Planet that the RoA used to be clea...I saw on <A HREF="http://www.mouseplanet.com/articles.php?art=mt070209dk" REL="nofollow">Mouse Planet</A> that the RoA used to be cleaned by the Twin Sisters Falls' Pumps & Filters, with all of the trash skimmed & filtered out of the water before being cycled back into the River. This would be a pleasant side effect of building a new falls, I'm certain that the resultant drop in the number of floating Candy Wrappers will improve the immersive experience along the Riverfront.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1164912978156906272006-11-30T10:56:00.000-08:002006-11-30T10:56:00.000-08:00I agree with you that DCA needs something like Fna...I agree with you that DCA needs something like Fnatasmic to liven its attendance and add something more magical to the park... but I think moving a well established and well loved and proven show like Fantasmic would jeopordize the show itself. This show works because its taking something like the calm magic of the ROA and transforming it at night into a magical after hours like secret that we are lucky enough to see if we just stick around a little longer. ROA and especially TSI NEED work, we need to get rid of the conestoga fry cart and the McDonalds that now resides in the Harbor Galley... not a show that is truly what Disney is about, magic, transformation, and witnessing our beloved Disney dreams and even nightmares come to life. I dont think that we need to strip Disneyland of one of the best and most still captivating a nd successful shows to perk up DCA. Has the electric light parade acheived that? I don't think so. Create something new and equally impressive for DCA and improve the experience of ROA by getting rid of the McD's etc. Those who divy up the $ for WDI to create theme park ideas, needs to realize that in order to make the $ they are used to and desire, that they need to be willing to SPEND the money on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1149334245791793042006-06-03T04:30:00.000-07:002006-06-03T04:30:00.000-07:00First, lets be correct. The Rivers of America circ...First, lets be correct. The Rivers of America circles around an island who's name is "Tom Sawyer" ("Tom Sawyer Island".) It is not an island belonging to Tom Sawyer as you labeled it: "Tom Sawyer's Island." <BR/><BR/>As for "Fantasmic." I was working at WDI when the mediocre minds at "Creative Entertainment" hatch that night time disaster. A few observations. I timed the applause following Fantasmic, less than 5 seconds. Then we went to see the fireworks over Sleeping Beauty's Castle. They applause was more than 10 seconds--including whistling and cheering that was non-existant at Fantasmic.<BR/><BR/>The "geniuses" that came up with that potluck of theatrical hardware without a story never admitted that the cost was nearly double the origianl estimate as they were able to hide much of their earth-moving, light-tree-hiding gadgetry in "area development" budgets. No one really knows what it cost for this big nothing. Best estimates are that Fantasmic cost more to develop, build, and create than the total costs for STAR TOURS. (We will now break into small groups to compare, contrast, and discuss--briefly.)<BR/><BR/>Now, that name: "Fantasmic." Once at a meeting with Micheal (Eisner), where he was glowing about the show and no one on the WDI side of the table was buying it, I asked, "Where does that name --'FANTASMIC'--come from? what other words in the English language is it derived from? Fantasy, or fantastic, okay, but "asmic' . . . what's that? All I can come up with is "orgasmic." So, they've created "Fantasmic" a wet dream for the entire family. (Spontaneous outburst of defening applause from the WDI contingent.)<BR/><BR/>Refurbishing Tom Sawyer Island, Fort, bridges, etc. would breathe new life into one of the great spots in the original design of "Walt's Little park." I visited Disneyland Paris in December (2005.) Tom Sawyer Island (TSI) there is terrific. Verdant, over-grown, meandering, challenging, and filled with stuff to do -- all designed adult-scale, but fun for kids. If even half of what they built into the Paris "TSI" was in Disneyland, CA, there'd be a 90 minute que to get out there--as there should be. <BR/><BR/>Let DCA have a good, old fashioned water show (goofy, decorated boats), with fireworks, like an old water-side amusement park from the 1920s and 30s--colorful, funny, (aqaua-maniacs doing high dives off the rollercoaster holding roman candles and over-sized sparklers), eccentric, with floats of early Disney animated classics. All culminating with Steamboat Willy.<BR/><BR/>Nah. WHo are we kidding? Fantasmic will stay where it is 'cause nobody in D'land gives a damn. And that's the really bad news. <BR/><BR/>When the graphic designers at WDI re-designed the Disneyland sign on Harbor Blvd in the late 1980s I suggested they add an asterick to: The happiest place on earth.*<BR/><BR/>*Subject to change without notice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145931057266661372006-04-24T19:10:00.000-07:002006-04-24T19:10:00.000-07:00Fantasmic! would lose much of its appeal with a mo...Fantasmic! would lose much of its appeal with a move to DCA - no Mark Twain, no Columbia, no bends in the river to hide the next show element. I say, leave it where it is, reduce and the stage footprint and improve the camouflaging of the area.<BR/><BR/>To bring back the old quiet lazy feeling of the riverfront, maybe they could use the area directly to the west of Big Thunder Mountain, the old area of the Mine Train Ride. It's a large area, a peninsula, heavily wooded with that small pond. I see a meandering path starting from just north of the boat dock, along the waterfront and reconnecting to the Big Thunder trail, with gas lamps, some animatronics and sounds, viewpoints and I suppose some themed restaurant/shops.<BR/><BR/>I realize there is a large berm there, the old track and tunnel and other things that would have to be torn down. But it would be a nice out of the way place - no F!, no throngs of people sitting by the riverside, no major through traffic - and it could be themed perfectly to Adventureland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145898515384130112006-04-24T10:08:00.000-07:002006-04-24T10:08:00.000-07:00Moving Fantasmic would be akin to moving Haunted M...Moving Fantasmic would be akin to moving Haunted Mansion to DCA. Fantasmic is an attraction, not a show anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145840169977467912006-04-23T17:56:00.000-07:002006-04-23T17:56:00.000-07:00I went the Disneyland recently and it was so packe...I went the Disneyland recently and it was so packed i coul barely see the river or the island at all :(<BR/>But i do recall seeing it on the "Magical World Of Disney' one sunday afternoon when i was a kid :)Rikkihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236113096513560062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145766259589004502006-04-22T21:24:00.000-07:002006-04-22T21:24:00.000-07:00I humbly stand corrected. The Lincoln show is hid...I humbly stand corrected. The Lincoln show is hideous, and I don't want Drew Carey running around the island dressed as a cop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145759458007629132006-04-22T19:30:00.000-07:002006-04-22T19:30:00.000-07:00Bratstar: No, no, no! With all due respect what yo...Bratstar: No, no, no! With all due respect what you want to do is have those sounds come from the places they're supposed to, not from headsets. The idea is to be transported to another time and place without the benefit of goggles or headsets or brain plugs. Otherwise you might as well install Frontierland 1.0 into your computer and go from there.<BR/><BR/>Besides, the image of a bunch of Disney guests on the deck of the Mark Twain all plugged in and wired up is just too unseemly.Mr Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12952506736745891323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145735020118366012006-04-22T12:43:00.000-07:002006-04-22T12:43:00.000-07:00Imagine for a moment an upgraded version of the wi...Imagine for a moment an upgraded version of the wireless headsets that were used in the latest incarnation of Great Moments. These would be given to passengers on the nighttime cruise and would play background sounds synchronized with what you are seeing along the river. And when you turn your head, the sounds effectively move too, so you have a sense of directivity. Imagine all that could be done with that to enhance the show experience (and I don't mean an onboard haircut). A little imagination and a little technology could go a long way with some great storytelling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145729639011180022006-04-22T11:13:00.000-07:002006-04-22T11:13:00.000-07:00If night cruises on the Mark Twain were restored, ...If night cruises on the Mark Twain were restored, there is one new problem I noted when Fantasmic was down a while back and the boat sailed after dark.<BR/><BR/>The lights from the DCA era "Mickey and Friends" parking garage now intrude through the foliage into the Rivers of America, breaking the former illusion of being far in the woods and away from civilization.<BR/><BR/>Same for the boat repair bay, which has remained lighted at night and also intrudes on the scene.<BR/><BR/>This is all totally fixable, but additional growth will be needed in those areas to hide the march of progress.Merlin Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13397520005969644808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145682387589157012006-04-21T22:06:00.000-07:002006-04-21T22:06:00.000-07:00Here here. Well said. I can say no more.Here here. Well said. I can say no more.Scott M. Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15214343160961420122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145678155351450242006-04-21T20:55:00.000-07:002006-04-21T20:55:00.000-07:00While I enjoy this blog I just have to disagree wi...While I enjoy this blog I just have to disagree with this post. Fantasmic is a GREAT show and works fine in its present location. Crowd control is simply a problem at DL because of the record crowds and probably the "evil" of fastpass and the fact that folks waiting for their time are in the walkways. Add to that the lack of capcity sucking rides like the subs, CBJ, etc. and you end up with a park that feels, alomst all the time CROWDED. F! adds to that but it would be nearly as bad without it.<BR/><BR/>The ROA have suffered with the passage of time but frankly I would rather have them spend precious capital money improving TL - a large land with multiple attractions and capacity.<BR/><BR/>TSI needs a major overhaul and (I know heresy here, probably needs a connection OTHER than the rafts. Like it or not, the problem for the modern guest is that they, completely unfounded, likely feel "trapped" over on the island and worry about missing a FP time, parade, meet up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145678071198294462006-04-21T20:54:00.000-07:002006-04-21T20:54:00.000-07:00Good points by a couple other posters... BRING BAC...Good points by a couple other posters... BRING BACK THE INDIANS. They did actual dances from their culture, the eagle and hoop dances from the southwest are beautiful and skillful things to celebrate. Storytelling and traditional clothing -- wonderful stuff that should be shown to everyone, not hidden away or removed as "not PC"... what the heck?? Honoring the original peoples of this land is "not PC"...? <BR/><BR/>Obviously if it's steriotypical or cheesy or not done by actual native Americans that's the wrong way to do it... but for pity's sake, if you brought back the live Indian dancers and storytellers in authentic clothing, visitors would eat that up, especially the kids and foreign visitors.<BR/><BR/>(I actually applied to Disneyland one summer to work as an Indian crafts demonstrator, but that was the summer they got rid of it all... I have supreme timing. Feh.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145677275547665022006-04-21T20:41:00.000-07:002006-04-21T20:41:00.000-07:00Merlin: I was there last September and the watersi...Merlin: I was there last September and the waterside animatronics looked faded but they were all working fine. <BR/><BR/>I'm glad they finally removed the ratty-looking panther near the Jungle Cruise visible from the train!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145672216767782912006-04-21T19:16:00.000-07:002006-04-21T19:16:00.000-07:00Bravo, Digital Jedi!Bravo, Digital Jedi!Mr Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12952506736745891323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145670047316868822006-04-21T18:40:00.000-07:002006-04-21T18:40:00.000-07:00I'd like to reemphasize a point made by one of the...I'd like to reemphasize a point made by one of the anonymous users. I had been feeling the decline of all things Disney for years now and was dismissing my feelings as just getting older. But something kept bothering me. See, I was still doing a lot of the things I used to do as kid and with just as much zeal now that I was older. I was still really into Star Wars, obviously, still liked animation and comics, still played video games. And managed to fit all that into having a successful marriage and a beautiful well behaved two year old. So what could have been my problem with Disney?<BR/><BR/>It wasn't until a few months ago that I began to realize that it wasn't me. It was Disney. As much as I didn't want it to be Disney, it was. You see Walt had spoiled me. He may have been gone for a long time and for a large portion of my life, but his influence was still felt in the Disney theme parks and in their attraction execution. His spirit never left.<BR/><BR/>He is well known for giving a thing all he could give it. For pouring every last dime and idea into the quality of a thing. For taking the guest experience as seriously as he could take it. After all, it was partially the poor quality of amusement parks at that time that lead Walt into creating something better. <BR/><BR/>So when someone says that we should stop whining about the past because times are always going to change, I have to say "quality doesn't change". <BR/><BR/>Bean counters don't look for quality. Nor do suits. They look to see how cheaply you can do a thing and exactly how much more money they can syphon out of you while doing it. They have been running Disney as a way to make as much money as possible without giving me as much as they can give me.<BR/><BR/>This post is a classic example of that. Businessmen seldom understand the meaning of the word quality. "Quantity" is the focus of their goals. <I>"How much more money can we make if use up this space here for something else?"</I><BR/><BR/>Whining? I'm sorry if I don't want to be handed such cheap cigars anymore. Walt raised me on Cubans.Digital Jedihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02374739586203788564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145666305221445852006-04-21T17:38:00.000-07:002006-04-21T17:38:00.000-07:00In an effort to remove and reformatt my own respon...In an effort to remove and reformatt my own responses to Chuck, the entire thread was inadvertantly lost. If Chuck wants to re-post he's more than welcome.Mr Bankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12952506736745891323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145665633973335092006-04-21T17:27:00.000-07:002006-04-21T17:27:00.000-07:00I don't understand why you removed the comments th...I don't understand why you removed the comments that were left by "chuck." I probably disagreed with about 100% of what he was saying, but I thought he had a well-reasoned argument that was leading to some interesting debate (until someone got rude with a lame zinger).<BR/><BR/>I love your site, and probably agree with you on almost all of your criticisms about Disneyland. I can understand deleting stupid, offensive, or dissenting views that are nothing but insults, but Chuck's were none of those things. What gives?Rainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03641204367490846543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145656135872625112006-04-21T14:48:00.000-07:002006-04-21T14:48:00.000-07:00In those things that we believe impossible we find...In those things that we believe impossible we find the few that are worth doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145652908917714662006-04-21T13:55:00.000-07:002006-04-21T13:55:00.000-07:00As a long-time guest of Disneyland, I can fully ap...As a long-time guest of Disneyland, I can fully appreciate the wonderful experience of an evening walk along the "Rivers of America", long before Fantasmic came along. I have to give due credit to the creative team for Fantasmic, as it is a truely remarkable spectacle and a prime example of what can be done with a lot of imagination - and a healthy budget. On the other hand, I also feel it has had a tremendous negative impact on this area of the park if for no other reason than the impossible crowds it generates. As with the parades and the fireworks, it seems to bring about the worst in people as you have a multitude of guests clamoring for privileged positions to watch the show, frustrated bystanders who are desparately trying to shuffle through the mess, and frazzled cast members doing their best at crowd control. It makes for a terrible park experience. And to think this starts up to 3 hours before the first showing.!!<BR/><BR/>Another unfortunate aspect of Fantasmic it that it is completely out of character with the theme of Frontierland. It is as if Fantaslyland has invaded. It makes absolutely no sense that Mickey Mouse is having this fantasy in the American frontier, or that there should be villians from different movies banding together against him, or a huge dragon, etc. A show for the Rivers of America should start with a credible theme that is consistent with Frontierland. Even if the story expands beyond that and takes the audience into realms of fantasy, it needs to begin and end with the appropriate tone and character. Why couldn't it have been a frontier-themed show where a supposed traveling "conjurer" suddenly starts displaying real magic??<BR/><BR/>Perhaps there are those people who feel that since Disneyland is a theme park, such lapses of theme are acceptable, but it is important to remember the founding principles that made Disneyland such a success to begin with. Outside of Fantasyland, there was a concerted effort to make each Land feel as "real" as possible and intrusions such as Fantasmic didn't exist. I hope that the appropriate decision is made to retire Fantasmic and make the Rivers of America a wonderfully atmospheric rendition of the frontier west once again -- minus all the mud, excrement, and cuss words of course. ;)<BR/><BR/>-DL5263Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145646980549577712006-04-21T12:16:00.000-07:002006-04-21T12:16:00.000-07:00It is certainly true that the addition of Fantasmi...It is certainly true that the addition of Fantasmic! and the loss of a lot of boating activity on the Rivers of America in Disneyland was (and is) somewhat determental to the River's ambiance. But I have to say, imagine how much worse it could have been!<BR/><BR/>I was a Florida-based designer for Imagineeering through the nineties, and Florida's Rivers of America and Fantasmic! at the Studios are still worse than whatever damage might have been inflicted in Anaheim. The River in Florida is bigger, making it's lack of boat traffic that much more obvious. It is far less accessible visually, and far more monotonous spatially, than Anaheim. Where New Orleans Square still feels vitally connected to, and part of, the riverfront, Florida's Frontierland never has. And we all agree, I think, that the Florida version of Fantasmic, while certainly more guest-friendly because of the amphitheatre approach, suffers because it is a stand-alone experience, without any connection to anything else. I spent several evenings in Anaheim last summer, sitting outside <BR/>in the cool evenings watching the activity along the seawall, and I can say that it still works. I can also say that in 10 years in Orlando, I never had the desire, nor was there the facility, to sit and admire the River for any meaningful length of time.<BR/><BR/>So, put back the boat traffic, but learn to live with the Fantasmic infrastructure. Even in it's adapted state, it is still FAR better than Florida was from it's first day! Then do something equally amazing, but different, at DCA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145644093373318832006-04-21T11:28:00.000-07:002006-04-21T11:28:00.000-07:00i like this post because you ended with definite, ...i like this post because you ended with definite, feasible ways for Imagineering to fix the problems you outlined. Some of the posts just seem to be complaints, but I think more needs to be offered in the way of how to fix the problems, rather than just demanding that Imagineering undo what they have done (which is unlikely to happen).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145622012688738472006-04-21T05:20:00.000-07:002006-04-21T05:20:00.000-07:00The quality of the show environment is very import...The quality of the show environment is very important to many fan of Walt Disneys Parks. The question is does managment play the odds that the general public does not pay attention to the details and do not care? Basically doing the show with less production costs and still charging the same or more for the promise of the Disney quality.<BR/>It is this Blog and the many excellent websites devoted to the Disney goings on that I hope help keep the bean counters in check.<BR/>We know what we want from Disney. Walt spoiled us and we as we've gotten older and wiser we can tell the difference between excellent, good and poor quailty. And just in case the powers that be happen to see this comment, my children are being made aware of the quality issues (good and poor) I notice at Disney and also in life in general.<BR/>An FYI: Hapers Mill on Tom Saywers Island at WDW does not have a functioning water wheel anymore. A piece of plexiglass has been placed over the wheel and the water runs over it leaving the wheel stationary. This was done during the last rehab. If I was in charge that would not stand!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22576594.post-1145606232451028022006-04-21T00:57:00.000-07:002006-04-21T00:57:00.000-07:00Agree 100%! Let's hope these plans are fastracked....Agree 100%! Let's hope these plans are fastracked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com